Discuss all things tuning in this section. News, products, problems and results.
So I am starting to gear towards a few factory ECU flash programs. Has anyone messed with EuroDyne? It appears to be a lot like Cobb software, but I am curious as to where to start with this tuning software and does anyone have a process or a helpful way that would explain this to me. Also was wondering if someone can explain a few of these extra tables?
Any help would be great! Thank you!
i do alot with eurodyne and i am an authorized dealer, a maestro cable is a must for custom tuning and the cable will make available any flash that is offered for your vehicle, tuning a factory bosch ecu is not an easy task, there is essentially 5 tables for each main table just to be blunt, so you can make changes on a table and get no result do to ongoing changes being made by secondary tables, not sure if this helps but its hard to try and sum up a eurodyne tune in a forum, if you have questions on a specific table you are altering let me know and i will do my best to explain it
Hoapct... Are you still around these forums?? I need help with Maestro... MED17 GTI GT3073 WM E30.. Too bad you cannot direct message other members here :-(
their support is 0 from 10,and maestro tuning platform is very limited on mk7 and similar generation,i went back with WinOls which is much better than their support.
I am running MK6 and I am not saying they are the best, and i would not really know either way; but I do know of many people who were sucessful in tuning their k04/BT setups using it on this platform. You are absolutely right about the support, it is actually below 0/10 because their descriptions of 75% of the maps say "description not entered for this map" and of course the ones that say that are the ones I need more information on! Oh well, I have absolutely 0 experience with any WinOls at all and from what I have seen/read it can be sort of a rabbit hole. I am always willing to learn if you are willing to teach! :-) But i dont even know where to begin with WinOls... Not that I am much further from that with Meastro, but I have been familiarizing myself with the software for the last month or so, my progress with eurodyne is coming in rather small baby steps, but I am starting to learn... Understanding this crazy ECU is half the battle, which I am working on that as well. Andre makes these stand alone's look like a cake walk compared to our ECUs
sorry guys I have been really busy and not had a lot of time to get on these forums but yes I am sill here and I am still tuning eurodyne , as I stated earlier this is not an easy platform to learn but it is very powerful and will outperform winols tunes, not taking anything away from winols it does the job it is more userfriendly that eurodyne but its capabilities in my opinion are not to the caliber of eurodyne, I may be wrong as I only dealt with winols very little and kind of ran out of time to learn it more in depth, I am big on aem (infinity especially) I put a few vws and audis on that, I like haltech and I use hondata a lot here in CT. like you said Darrin learning the ecu control strategy is key before you will understand what changes to make in that crazy bosch ecu
Is there anyway to turn off the Boost PID system? I would like to try and get my boost where I want it with open loop before messing with that complicated mess. Is there a value I can plug into the tables to "disable" it? I at least have since learned how PID works, so thats a plus, but it is still way over my head for a beginner.
honestly i never used the boost control i always have used manual boost controllers or some stand alone ebc setup in order to avoid the factory control of how the boost is manipulated when rising in rpm, it always took so long to try and dial it in using maestro that i just decided the time wasted wasnt worth it, however if you want to invest the time you can get it dialed in and have the boost curve follow the torque curve which can help the engine go through less strain, but i am typically building track cars not street cars so that is really not a concern it is usually the more power the better, so sorry i really cant offer too much assistance with that
and when using MBC, you leave the n75 plugged in but leave it as a dummy? Thanks for the help by the way. It is easy to adjust the boost curve via the "Max duty cycle" but the ecu adds all kinds of PID inputs to it and it always jumps around.. its also kind of tricky because the 2.5mbar map sensor only senses 22.48 psi, so above that you are blind as far as the ecu goes. I do have a standalone boost/vacuum gauge of course, but as far as the ecu goes, maybe it would be easier for me to go MBC. never really even thought about it until now.. hmm
that is why i like to use the mbc because i can set boost and make sure the tune is on point for any given boost level and then if you want you can plug n75 back in (oh and no unplug the n75 and use the vacuum hoses on the mbc) and play with the settings knowing the tune is right and now you can dial in the boost control without worry
There are PID gain schedules and PID limits built into the ECU. You can set the gain and limit tables to deactivate PID control (lower the limits so that feedback action is clipped, or set the gains to 0), and then set the duty cycle offset table as your open loop control.
If you can post screenshots of all your boost related tables we can help you further.
okay I will.. right now i am tuning my K04 for practice.. I will have the GT30 in before the 4th of Nov. and I will be starting from a Base K04 map on that one. I put in 0's for P-Gain, I-Gain, and PID Damper and my boost control is AMAZING. I am holding boost longer and it is spooling faster and lower in the RPMS. I am essentially running the k04 @ full send right now. Last VDyno was 360/399 so It seems I have the boost dialed in for this turbo, but I will most certainly need help when I start from low duty cycle on the GT30 and will be happy to post pics as I go along. Here is what I am running right now on the k04... see next post as I have to fire up the laptop...
I am also trying to figure out what the difference is between cam timing position 1 and 2. Is one effective during enrichment? these are the cam tables I got from the last time I had my car "tuned" and you can see although similar, there are in fact different values between the two tables. I haven't been able to understand when each is active... I have a lot of questions haha so hopefully you guys have the patience to bear with me. I promise I am a very fast learner though! It just seems like all the information I can find is for the ME7 platform and although very similar to the MED17, the maps are different between the two...
Can you post a screenshot of the Intake cam timing map and the wastegate duty correction map?
To answer your question about the spark, it would be nice to see your current intake cam timing map. It is my understanding that on those engines, the intake cam can advance from 0 to whatever degrees (30 or 50) and the exhaust cam is fixed. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I am going to assume that the Cam position 1 is spark timing with the intake cam position at 0 (no advance). Cam position 2 would be spark timing with the intake cam position at max, and then it would linearly interpolate between the two. So if the max value in the cam position map is 30, and the timing map says 40 in that speed/load point for cam position 2 map, you would run 40 degrees spark if you are at 30 degrees cam position. Then if you are at 0 degrees cam advance, and the cam position 1 spark map says 38 degrees at that speed and load, you would run 38. And if you had 15 degrees cam advance, you would run 39. That's a simplified example; there may be a bunch of corrections and compensations working in the background that you don't have access to.
To test this theory, you could try temporarily zeroing out the intake cam map (I am unsure how this would affect driveability in your exact situation, but I assume it would be minimal). Then you would expect the spark timing to decrease in most speed/load areas. This is because the spark timing 1 is less than spark timing 2 in a lot of places, so the spark plug is firing later. You would fire the spark plug later because you want to reduce knock (mostly medium to high load areas) or because the engine is burning faster (most important in low load areas).
The reason why you have two different spark timing tables based on valve timing is that the intake cam position changes the effective compression ratio, the volumetric efficiency, and the internal EGR rates. So on an intake VVT only system you usually advance at low rpm WOT and then reduce advance at high rpm. Advancing raises the effective compression ratio at low speeds by closing the intake valve closer to bottom dead center (higher compression-->more knocking tendency-->retard spark if fuel is knock limited). Retarding the intake valve (reducing advance) closes the intake valve later and gives the engine more time to breathe at high rpm. In that case you would expect it to trap more air and in some areas need less spark timing due to higher loads and more knock tendency.
At part load, advancing the intake cam opens the intake valve while the piston is still rising in the exhaust stroke and the exhaust valve hasn't fully closed yet. This pushes hot exhaust into the intake port which is then drawn into the combustion chamber once the exhaust valve closes. That exhaust gas gives an emissions (and slight fuel economy) improvement. The hot exhaust gases dilute the intake air and slow down the combustion. However, the engine can run with the electronic throttle open more to counteract the diluted gas. When the throttle is open more, it becomes less of a restriction, and fuel economy improves slightly. The inert gases also lower combustion temperatures which is better for NOx emissions during cruising conditions. In that case with all the inert gases in the chamber you need more spark advance to account for the slower burn.
Anyway that's the general approach for the relationship between intake cam advance and spark timing.
Here is the screenshots of intake cam timing map and wastegate duty cycle correction map as requested. I have not modified either of these. They are from the last time I had my car tuned for E30 and DP W/M on k04. As far as the wastegate DC correction, how is that calculated? What does needs corrected on the WGDC? So far you have been more help than a month of online research. Thanks again!
Screenshots didn't post, try again.
oops.. dont know what happened there.. second try......
i also wanted to inquire because i was reading this. It is for an audi b5 i think, but still the same maps.. they say cam pos 1 is for when vvt is enabled and 2 is for when vvt is disabled. My mk6 MED17 does not support VVT so does this mean that I should not even worry about cam pos table 1? or just keep both of them identical, but work cam table 2? so confusing! :-)
ARGHX7 --> thanks for the explanation above. You guys are so much help, its amazing...
Ok so you've got a bit of a concern here because your tables aren't labeled very well. I pulled up the VWVortex thread you screenshotted. In their example, there are optimum spark tables and then what they are calling "pump gas" map. So the optimum spark tables for cam position 1 and 2 are most likely used for the torque model/torque control. The ECU targets a torque and tries to get their in the most fuel efficient way. If it can get there with less air and more timing, it's going to do so. The optimum spark is part of that calculation. Unfortunately your spark tables are labeled "Timing map, cam position 1/2" . Eurodyne may not have found the "pump gas" map for your ECU, or maybe it doesn't even exist for your particular model. In that case you should still confirm that these tables actually do something. You're going to have to make some changes and do a back to back log to see if your logged timing actually changes in an expected way. You just have to be careful because you can start affecting boost and throttle if these are "optimum spark" tables. Try advancing both maps by 1 or 2 degrees from current values see what happens. Then if that doesn't do anything, pick one map and try it (cam position 1 or 2). I still think it interpolates spark based on cam position as I described in my previous post. This would be consistent with for example how Honda or Ford interpolates a lot of calculations based on cam position.
Regarding cam position map, I THINK that your engine has continuously variable timing (a type of VVT, please try not to get confused as the terms are thrown around a lot), and the engine in that thread has only on and off VVT control (old 1.8T + with port injection?). He mentions 22 degrees advance in his section on the intake cam maps. It certainly looks like, with the way Eurodyne has labeled it, the negative direction is ADVANCE and the positive direction is RETARD. But then again I'm not sure. I'm asking myself, what's the reference point? Or maybe it is just a modified table and there is some other calculation behind the scenes?
As for the wastegate WGDC correction map, set the whole thing to 0 and see if that drops your logged duty cycle to 0 (boost should drop way down). Since your PID gains are 0'd out, the WGDC correction should be your main way of raising and lowering boost (assuming you don't get any kind of torque model related throttle closures).
Yea man.. thats my biggest problem is the way these maps are labeled. I will attempt to do what you said on the Cam Timing maps and report back.
As for the WGDC Correction map: I have a Max Duty Cycle map which is a linear 2d map and also the WGDC Correction map. So I was under the impression that the main way to control boost was through the max duty cycle. As boost seems to increase and decrease as that table is adjusted (with all PID tables at 0). That is why i dont understand what the WGDC Correction map does? And with the PID control, why is there even a duty cycle correction map? All this being said, even with all this confusion going on, I am still making progress overall as far as understanding Eurodyne and the ECU in general...
Give me a few mins and I will fire up the laptop and post a screenshot of all the available maps/tables Eurodyne has for my ECU. Maybe you can get a better overall picture then? I dunno lol! If you want me to open a specific table and screenshot that particular table just let me know! Thanks again for all the help!
Here is a screenshot of all the available maps Eurodyne offers on my ECU. I know i reference a lot from the 1.8T's as that is really where all the online information is concentrated, and although some is similar to my 2.0, some is also very different. I dont have a pedal position map, etc. But let me know if you want me to take a screenshot of a particular table open. Cant thank you enough for the help!
Yeah Eurodyne did the bare minimum of reverse engineering your ECU. For example there are no injection timing maps for the direct injection system, and as we discussed you are probably missing some spark maps. Can you post the "Fuel rail pressure" , "Full load lambda" and "power enrichment" tables?
To narrow down how the wastegate duty is controlled, keep all the closed loop gains off. Set your limit table all to like 99%. Then set your entire offset table to like 30% and see if your wastegate duty is now fixed at 30%. The simplest way to control boost is to control the wastegate by open loop duty cycle only, and then adjust your load limits and load to torque calculations such as that you don't get any throttle closures (or only get it if you have a major overboost event).
Okay. The car is down this week as it’s on stands cuz I am doing the GT30 install and have to do another clutch since my last one was slipping. Should have it up and running by Sunday hopefully. Will do what you suggested with the boost maps and will post the fuel rail map and the other one u requested. After the gt30 is in I have to take baby steps with the boost because that turbo will bend my stock rods real quick if I don’t control it. The k04 I could max out and not worry about the internals, but not so much with the gt30. This project has been a long, long time coming. I had the compressor machined out to fit a 73mm billet wheel. Ceramic coated the turbo, headers, and downpipe and wrapped them all in lava wrap and then silicone coated them. I also put a blanket over the gt30. So I am Super excited to finally get this process rolling. From what my research shows. I can safely operate the car with the gt30 on the “base k04 map” eurodyne provides. So my plan is to just build boost and timing up from there until I am about 400whp/400ftlbs which is a safe max for the stock internals. Hopefully you are willing to help me along the way!
I did download winols and got it running and read my ecu just to check it out. But it seems like that is a rabbit hole that once I go down I’m gonna be stuck in for a while. I know people have successfully made very powerful 2.0 TSIs with the MED17 ecu on eurodyne software. So that is hopefully what I plan to do if possible. On the other hand. If eurodyne doesn’t give me the proper maps like you mentioned above maybe I should try to send the cable back and go the winols route. I’ll post the pics of the maps u requested later today and see what you think. As always, thanks for the help!!!
Arghx7, are you in the US? If so, where abouts???