Keep everyone up to date with how your project is coming along.
Iv also done this with my own R33 GTST S2 but i havent used the dyno after each mod so this is very interesting to me,
I built my one off Ebay apart from my ecu i bought that from link, Iv got solid high power results thats been very realiable
so far it has run 1 year on 25psi at 376kw and close to 1 year at 411kw both done on a mainline awd1500 dyno
only mods im running is
50 motorsport 1600cc inj
bosh 044 fuel pump intank with relay mod
arp head studs
mlsr head gasket
high mount exhaust mainifold
Ebay 3582r $300 new!! thats right $300 new and its still going 2 years later
custom 3inch exhaust straight back to rear trust box muffler
now its running e85 fuel witch is being measured via zeitronix eca2 kit and aem wideband and a fuel presure sensor thats wired to the ecu for safty trimming features to keep it alive, im still running standard cams, i streched the standard head bolts at 382kw and 26psi with 24deg ign timing at wot and 12.5afr, so i upgraded to arp bolts and mlsr head gasket, then retuned to 28 psi and 26deg at wot and 12afr and shes been holding together ever since im very happy with the strenth and standard flow of the motors just goes to show you can push these to extream limits.
but i just thaught id share my findings with you as it could also be helpful on building on a budget, this build set me back $6000 in parts total inc oil and filters,hoses ect
Nice Chris! Looks like some ebay turbos can last!
My spare cash funds have dried up atm so no more progress for now :(
This is very interesting just wanted to know is that 411kw still on stock cams and valve springs?
The reason I ask is I have a rb30/25 with stock cams and valve springs, I would rather leave them stock for the moment, but I have been worried about hitting valve float.
Yeah i was gonna say the same thing!... surely that can't be an all stock standard valve-train?
Wait... is that also standard bottom-end??
"DavidRB", you'll definitely want to uprate the cams when you've increased the displacement by 20%. Its not CRUCIAL... but it will make much better use of the 3L bottom end.
Hey Chris, that's some impressive results!
The chinese turbos and stuff being sold on ebay is hard to ignore when you compare the price. Personally I've always stuck to the genuine name brand parts as I know exactly what I'm getting. that being said though, I'm aware of plenty of people who are getting great results and reliability from ebay turbos. I think that the chinese manufacturers have probably stepped their game up a little from the early products we saw (one of which didn't last more than a handful of dyno runs on a customer's car). It's still a lottery though unless you can be recommended to a certain supplier by someone with first hand experience.
Out of interest if you are running a Link ECU, is there any reason you didn't feed the EC sensor direct into the ECU rather than through a Zeitronix? There is a pre configured DI set up to read the continental EC sensor and then you could actually manipulate your fuel and ignition (and boost) based off EC. Not essential but just a thought.
yes full standard block and head not getting any valve float at all, iv run up to 32psi but knew thats pushing it far beyond its actual limits
yes andre its wired into the ecu and ign and boost drops with e85 content amongst fuel tempture trims aswell iv wired in as many safty features as posible to keep it alive and its done well
here is the link for the power run
I'v been told by reputable sources that 350rwkW is the safe limit for stock RB25 internals. And even then... its not so safe. Its almost unbelievable that you're getting this power out of a completely stock RB25!. :/
Whats the boost, revs and inlet temp at 410rwkW??
It wouldn't necessarily be wise to promise customers 350rwkw+ is fine on a stock RB25, but there are heaps running around making that kind of power and more without issue, especially with the R34 RB25s. A mate of mine in Oz has been running 360-390rwkw (depending on occasion) on E85 with an unopened R34 RB25 for track/sprint events for some time and the thing is still a tank, there are plenty others around running that power or more if just used for the occasional dyno/drag/street run on that power.
I'm not really personally into magic rules about how much can be handled with a stock motor because how much engine condition, quality of tune, parts combo etc come into it - for what it's worth a guy in Oz that had people knock him for his claimed power figures ("Happy dyno, surely?" or "It's going to break immediately") after posting >800hp @ hubs on his stock bottom end RB25 with a GTX42 turbo, he was told to go the drags and get a time slip which backs up the power - so he did and run flat 10s at nearly 150mph haha. Doesn't mean you should plan to, but they can be pretty tough if you are careful.
Whats the difference between R33 and R34 RB25?
What an engine can make on stock internals is often a surprise to many. The awkward situation as lith mentions is what I would personally be prepared to do for my own engine vs a customer's engine are very different. For example many years ago I owned a KE70 DX Corolla with a 4AGZE bottom end, silver top 20V head and HKS GT30 turbo. On C16 that engine made 501 whp at 32 psi with stock internals. It ran 10.51 @ 134 mph and to the best of my knowledge the original engine is still going strong. The thing is I understood the risks and if the thing threw a rod I wouldn't have been surprised or unhappy.
For an off the street customer with an EVO 7-9 my general rule of thumb is that 300-325 kW atw. In my experience this is safe and reliable regardless how hard the customer wants to beat up on it. We did however build an EVO 9 for a customer who was wanting to go hunting for the stock block world record a while back and went much further. This produced about 515 kW atw on 38 psi with E85. The customer however was well aware of the risks and understood there was no comeback if the thing fell to pieces.
When pushing a stock motor this hard there are also some things you can do to help improve reliability. For example with the EVO 9 I mentioned we purposely kept the boost lower through peak torque before stepping it up at higher rpm. Likewise we also retarded the timing a little around peak torque to help reduce peak cylinder pressure.
The main differences between the R33&34 RB25DET's is the 34 has solid lifters instead of hydraulic and RB26DETT rods
In terms of differences between them, there are a few (heads are quite different which may help some things) one major point of interest is the connecting rods - before the R34 came along it wasn't an unusual thing for people to use RB26 conrods when rebuilding their RB25s on a relative budget because of the extra strength they offer, somewhere along the line someone decided to do the same upgrade with an R34 RB25 and discovered they had the same rods and initially thought they'd been ripped off... on investigation, the RB26 and R34 Neo RB25 have the same part number - but not R33 ones.
Check out the necks on these - not sure if obvious here, but when in front of you the R33 ones look a decent amount more spindly:
Not like going to an aftermarket rod, but when you can actually get some pretty decent power out of an R33 RB25 without too much issue - any improvement in structure is going to start showing it's worth as your start pushing them.
The R33 and R34 RB25's have different piston designs, the R33 ones have a bit more crown height and the R34 has a smaller combustion chamber volume - Iirc the R34 pistons may have a nicer design for allowing flow from the oil squirters to the underside of the crowns, too.
In for updates, interesting thread.
intressting discussion about standart block and their solidity. I my experience, it's more the torque that is a limiting factor on standart engines and not power. Most pistons will hold happily alot of power, but are getting very fragil if a knock event occurse at high boost/cylinder pressure. So the tune is all.
Usually the first an worste part that can break are the rods. I pay alot of attention that we limit the boost and don't get a overboost situation in any scenario at peak torque (=peak cylinder pressure). After peak torque I raise the boost with rpm to get the power.
I heard that APR rod bolts will help to keep the std. Rods togetter. Has anyone first hand experience with that?
Andre, 300-325kws sound like alot of power for the stock 4g63 block. What fuel and what kind of boost you run on such a setup. I usually limiting the torque to 500Nm and power around 420HP at the flywheel.
Ok awhile since an update, No real performance mods but spent abit of time making it look the part. I decided driving around in peeling clear with black bodykit just wasnt going to cut it.
This was it just before the tear down
Did 90% of the prep room at home, nothing major was needed... few dings here and there, rolled the guards and make the bodykit fit properly
Was not happy with the gaps to the fenders with the new duck tail spoiler, so had to cut that in half and widen it
Moved to the workshop and the painting begun
Freshly painted and baking out in the sun (mainly so the runs could harden up and I could sand them out... Im a Fabricator/tuner not a painter :P)
Straight after the respray... Persisted with the vented bonnet and super low M-sport bumper for a little bit
After going to a JDM car meet I was certain I wanted a R33 S2 front end, So sourced all the bits and it was Done... Extremely happy with it now.
As mentioned no new engine mods simply because Im waiting for the Drag season to re-open in a couple weeks to see what I can get out of the Stock turbo, Best was 13.2 last season and since then have fitted some super sticky 255/40/17 Nitto NT01's (old tyres just 235/45/17 streeters) a short shifter and clutch that wont smell after every run...
But I have prepped for the next step and got a 340LPH intank pump, Top Feed fuel rail, 875cc Siemens Deka Injectors, Tomei FPR and a El cheapo Ebay Turbo (specs are somewhere between a GT3071 and GT3076) So very much looking forward to that...
Stunning colour, what is it? Looks similar to Mobil Blue (like the VK Group A) to me.
Hey Mick, yep quite similar but is actually a rare R33 GTR Color called Champion Blue... well its based on that but I found it to be abit milky out in the sun so a Substituted the Carbon black in the formula with Jet black and a little more of it as well as reducing the amount of white. Really happy with the color :D
Hey Clint, car is looking great! You're a man of many talents!
I'm thinking since we have started a 'Build threads' sub forum, this thread might be better off there? Do you object to us moving it?
Thanks Andre, jack of all.. Master of none.
Yeh I was actually going to email Ben to suggest that it be moved :)