Discuss all things tuning in this section. News, products, problems and results.
Just watched the Webinar on 4D Tuning Link G4 Plus and I have to say my head hurts a bit. I kind of understood the concepts covered but I am trying to relate it back to my own application and this is where I having difficulty.
In the webinar, Andre used two maps to tune the motor. The TPS maps for the main fuel map and then the pressure MAP to compensate the fueling based on the recorded AFR. Hopefully I have that right.
My application is not a car but a motorcycle, a 2016 Yamaha R1 to be precise. If I look at the fuel section of the ECU I see three tables, TPS vs RPM, MAP vs RPM and (TPS vs RPM) vs (MAP vs RPM), what I don't understand is the third map. Can anyone shed a bit of light on this for me?
I have a feeling I need to rewatch the webinar again.
Basically you have your base fuel table, tps vs rpm, this is your basic VE table for the engine. When you increase the boost you're essentially increasing the VE as you're pumping more air in, this requires a compensation table, to add more fuel your map vs. Rpm.
Sometimes people understand it better if you think of it like the cold start compensation, when the engine is cold it requires more fuel, the warm up enrichment or cold start compensation map adds the extra fuel required while the conditions require it.
So when you're running higher boost than your minimum boost level you're compensating for the extra air with your 4D table.
i should be mentioned, it is not always necessary to use a 4D table for an NA engine. You can do barometric compensations on the 4D table. The ECU use MAP in the fuel modell in the backround and does a linear correction. Means it will double fuel injection amount if you have 2bar absolut pressure compared to 1bar absolut pressure (MAP). The 4D is only needed if the engine doesn't response linear in a NA application or to compensate for non-linear efficiency changes with boost pressure.
Like what Adrian was talking about. When I tune an NA engine with ITB's and a big cam, there's really no other way to do it correctly that with TPS loading for fuel. When tuning in VE, and a MAP sensor connected, the MAP compensation already happens in the background as part of the VE model. 100% throttle is always the same, so there's never been a need for me to do a 4D (additional MAP compensation table) table in this case. When we add a turbo into the mix on an ITB engine, the problem is that the turbo being in the exhaust will change the VE of the engine at different boost levels.
So we tune the engine to the lowest spring pressure boost on the VE table to 100% throttle. Say .6 bar. Now we increase the boost to .8 bar, and if the AFR drifted from the original 100% throttle calibration, our VE has changed, and we can compensate for that in the 4D table at .8 bar. Then go to 1.0 bar, and so on. Once the VE table is tuned, there is no need to revisit it. For AFR variance with increased boost, you compensate in the 4D table.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for the responses but I'm still none the wiser.
My question isn't around how the mapping works or why it is necessary, I understood all of that.
My Question is why does my ECU on my 2016 Yamaha R1 have 3 tables?
TPS vs RPM - Got it, it's my main VE table.
MAP vs RPM - Got it, this is like a compensation table to account for any nonlinear pressure areas of the first table.
TPS vs RPM vs MAP vs RPM - No idea why there is a separate table which I can edit in my ECU.
Ah are you modifing the OEM yamaha ECU, not a Link?
Sometimes OEM's do funny things, which are not simple to get your head around. I can think of, that the 3th table is some kind of bleefing ratio between the first two. A picture of the maps would help to interpret them.
Having looked again at the ECU Maps with a fresh head, I suspect your right, given then 3rd table is called TPS MAP Bias. The explanation for the table says TPS vs RPM vs MAP vs RPM, which is where my confusion stemmed from.
Would I be right in saying that in Andre's webinar, there was no bias map, but rather the ECU was using a combination of the maps together at the same time? Whereas in this ECU the amount of bias is determined by this third table. Looking at it now, it seems to make sense since there seems to be a bias towards the MAP vs RPM at light load and no bias at WOT.
I've included some screen shots here but I think it's straight in my head now.
Thank you all for responding.
I can't give you a definitive answer to the TPS MAP Bias table - I suspect based on the definition that Adrian is right and it's a blend table. As for why Yamaha felt the need to do this I can't answer. OE's often come up with their own unique solutions to problems that aren't always obvious or apparent in the aftermarket. The good news is that unless you're making really dramatic changes to the mechanical configuration of the engine, you'll likely be able to perform most of your tuning in the RPM/TPS table.
Two questions - First of all what are you using to flash the ECU? I only ask because we will be tuning a 2011 R1 in the coming weeks. Secondly is there something specific happening around 14,300 rpm? There appears to be a dramatic change in fuelling requirement there. I'm sorry my knowledge on the R1 is limited. And by limited I mean zero :)
Firstly, the content you guys produce is amazing, my knowledge has come on leaps and bounds in the time I have been watching the HP Academy Webinars and the Reflash Course.
To answer your first question the images I have uploaded is from the FT ECU tune reflashing program. The images I uploaded are of a standard map on cylinder 1. Currently I am deciding between using FT Tune (https://ftecu.com/shop/category/2015-r1/) or Woolich Racing (http://www.woolichracing.co.uk/products/yamaha/yzf-r1/2016/2016-yamaha-yzf-r1-ecu-flashing.aspx#productTable).
At the moment I am leaning towards the Woolich solution because I can easily see from the kits they do for my 2016 R1 that they have a data logging function/product. Whereas I can't see anything like that from FT ECU. That said I can't download the Woolich software and I have asked them if their system is designed to have a wide band permanently connected to run in closed loop. I also asked them if I would need their data logger plugged in all the time for the solution to function, although I doubt this. I have not yet received an answer to either question so the jury is still out. The next step was to speak to some tuners to see what they have had previous experience using.
Here is a link for the 2011 R1 Woolich Racing products - http://www.woolichracing.co.uk/products/yamaha/yzf-r1/2011/2011-yamaha-yzf-r1-ecu-flashing.aspx#productTable
To answer the second question I believe that around 14000 is where the rev limit is out of the box but yes I couldn't work out it either.
The other oddity I noticed was that I can't see in the FT ECU Tune software is where the target AFR table is, which begs the question how does the bike know it's operating well at idle/cruise. My assumption at the moment is that the FT ECU Tune software doesn't show that part of the ROM because I can't see it working without it.
One question I was going to ask the forum/you was do you think that motorcycle engine breaking strategies would work in a similar way as a mild anti-lag strategy? I know engine braking control keeps the throttle bodies from completely closing when the throttle grip is at zero but after watching the Anti-Lag webinar I wonder if fuel and a retarded ignition would also be required in order to reduce the engine braking torque on the rear wheel. It would certainly explain why you see bike flaming one corner entry,
A second question I had was I am going to Portugal in March for a 4 day track day, ideally, I'd like to run an aftermarket de-cat and exhaust but I can't get it to a dyno before then. I am concerned that the combination of the bike running a bit leaner and Portugal heat might not be a good idea.
If you would like to have a poke about the FT ECU Tune software just ping me an email and we could see if we could setup a video conference or something. Or you could just download it I suppose... :-(
Hope this helps mate.
Oh one thing I should have mentioned, I believe the 2015 R1 was the first R1 to use a CAN BUS system. Not sure if that makes a big difference to you guys.
Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead but I haven't found many motorcycle post and that's why I'm mainly here. I have been flashing/tuning with Woolich products for years. Some of these maps you will find in factory ECUs are better left alone IMO. I would tune it alpha-n and it will work great! I'm actually debating working on two maps at the same time for my Haltech on my ZX10 using alpha-n and map vs rpm. I have a 2009 R1 as well and have been playing with the ECU maps as well
Im now only using 1 table MAP vs rpm. The AFR drift rich everytime i left my foot off bfore the overrun fuel cut kicks in.
As i remember, the stock ecu will able to lean out right away so im not wasting fuel. Isnt this a possible solution to get it to my AFR target closer? It just drift to someting like 11, 12 when decel
Hi Alex, the two reasons you may have a rich condition on throttle lift could be related to the fuel table numbers being too rich in the over run area (it can be tricky to properly tune these cells in steady state conditions), or you may need decel enleanment (also referred to as tip out enleanment). For exactly the same reason that the engine needs additional fuel on a sharp throttle input, it needs less momentarily when we get off the throttle quickly. Most ECUs will offer this as an option.
It is a link g4+ gtr plug in. Im only using MAP based table. thus, during overrun, shift, afr can drift so spike happen there.
I just want to reduce the spike if any possible. Coz the factory ECU would do on that part for correction very quick. And want to see if that in theore should save some fuel. MAP based sometime hit very high % Fuel cell but overrun fuel cut still need delay so it is always a gap there.
No enleanment there but what i think if a 4D with TP load to reduce at 0% TP for certain rpm range.