Discuss all things tuning in this section. News, products, problems and results.
I'm in the process of looking to change the ignition system on my Evo (4G63). It is currently bone stock WRT coils.
Option 1 is to go the really popular route of fitting Denso stick coils to give a COP setup. This is cheap (relatively speaking) and supposedly gives good results, despite still being a wasted spark system.
Option 2 is to go COP and run 2 more wires in to go to sequential ignition as I have 2 spare ign channels on my G4+
Option 3 is kind of a halfway house, install an HKS DLII twin spark I have laying around. I guess this could be used with either the stock wasted spark coils, wasted spark COP or sequential COP.
The car is 400WHP (500ATF) and I'm not aware of any problems with the ignition system as is, however I do think there is a benefit to be had in doing something at this level of tune. Can anyone shed some light on the best way forward with the above options in mind?
I would go with option 2 simply because it's a proven solution.
It's always good to take a look of what as been done at the highest level in Motorsport.
Here are few examples:
Ford Duratec from GRC (~600hp with restrictor)
Project Nemo in WTAC (4G63 / ~900whp)
I'd agree with Ludo, if there is no issues with your ignition system and you just want a stronger spark then option 2 would be your best bet. Running a full sequential system would mean that less energy is getting drawn to power a coil which is firing into an empty cylinder.
I know the HKS twin spark has a proven history but again, you'd be firing a coil twice when really it shouldn't be needed to fire more than once
Thanks for the replies.
That was my gut feeling, but I was hoping to have a better idea of why option 2 would be best. The only reason I can assume this is the best option as the coil(s) will be firing half as often, which I would assume means a stronger spark?
The HKS comes in as I have one sitting in my garage and had one on my previous evo. I have read a few guys running COP wasted spark (due to stock ecu) and the HKS unit. Some of the expensive COP kits (M&W Pro, etc) use a box tricks, and I guess I'm wondering if that box of tricks is the same as the HKS unit I have?
At that power, I would honestly keep it simple and run a WastedSpark COP.
It does the job easily without any need for extra spending.
On Evo's, around 520-550whp on my Mainline, I find is around where a further upgrade to a CDI system would be beneficial.
Plug gap at 0.55mm, 32+psi boost and E85 is no dramas at 500whp for a standard Denso COP.
The 'M&W Pro-14 Evo' is the badass CDI kit to get if you are short on outputs.
Takes two ign outputs in waste along with a cam signal for TDC on cylinder 1. Then multiplexes it and converts to sequential CDI!
Does anyone have expirience with okada quad pack ignition system? I use the 4channel COP system for the first time and had bad missfiring issues on 2.0bar of boost. Unfortunately a very bad missfire at 8200rpm has pumped the lifters up and the piston touched the valves and damaged the two hydraulic lifters on cylinder 4.
I'm not sure if it's a problem from the coils, think more a trigger issue. Because I've seen missfire already on 1,4bar of boost.
Whats the best methode to find out if it is a trigger issue on a Link G4? The trigger error counter hasn't raised after missfire.
Wasted spark COP is worth doing in your opinion. I guess I'm struggling to see what benefit is there, as I can't see how wasted spark COP Vs stock ignition can be an improvement? I have a couple of spare ign outputs, so apart from the wiring, making it sequential is a 5 minute job. M&W do some really nice bits, but it's probably a bit overkill for my needs!
This is an interesting subject; most other forums seem to only offer the typical answer of 'I'm using X and it hasn't broken, so it's great and you should buy it too'. As good as that is, I want to understand WHY the ignition system needs modifying from stock and what the options are Vs the gains (and drawbacks) :-)
Adrian, could you start a topic of your own and post up a copy of your map with any datalogs of the misfire events? just to keep this thread on topic.
Wasted spark is IMO only an upgrade from a dizzy set up, if your wiring individual coils and have the available outputs I'd run it as sequential as it puts less strain on the coils and increases their lifespan. Running sequential also allows longer charging times making sure that they are firing at full power each time.
For an example, the last car I switched from wasted spark to sequential was a 1JZ-GTE powered Toyota Soarer, it was limited to 1.3 bar of boost due to not having enough firing energy, once changed we were able to raise the boost to 1.6 and then onto 1.9 bar without issues.
Going beyond that onto CDI is when your running big boost and power when you need to make sure your not going to have a no fire events.
Thanks For the replies.
I guess what I am asking is why does the spark system NEED addressing once you pass certain levels of tune, and what options are on the table along with pros and cons, etc.
I think I'm happy enough to go along the lines (with the abbreviated version) of higher boost requires a stronger spark to maintain a consistent ignition event as some factory systems aren't up to the job past a certain level of tune?
Ignition systems really seem to be a bit of a dark art and appear to be a bit neglected in terms of information and options?
I've used probably most of the popular ignition combinations on the 4G63 and in all honesty at 400 whp I would leave the ignition system alone. There is a lot of marketing information about the advantages of moving to an ignition system with a stronger spark. Dyno sheets have shown an additional 10 hp or so from a simple upgrade. my own experience however has shown that unless you're suffering from an ignition misfire, there is nothing to be gained.
I did this on my old drag car back when it was around 400 kW atw on C16. We were running the stock coils with an MSD DIS @ CDI (not the best product by today's standards). This unit had a jumper plug that allowed me to revert to stock inductive ignition in about 10 seconds. Back to back tests at 32 psi showed zero difference between the runs.
Later on the world record holding EVO 9 we built, we used a Sparktech COP system. This was originally a street car and we ran Sparktech's inductive sequential system. When we raised the bar and got serious we moved to Sparktech's CDI version using the M&W Pro Drag 4 CDI. On the dyno we tested both systems and at 42 psi both produced 1000 whp within the run to run variation you could expect at this power level - I certainly couldn't pick a winner.
The point of this is that I'd only suggest upgrading if you actually have a misfire or issue you're trying to work through. Aftermarket CDI systems can also be unreliable in my experience (well perhaps the M&W that I'm most familiar with at least). Newer inductive coils like the high energy coils sold by AEM (and others) really have me questioning the need for CDI in a modern high output engine.
I have the parts in hand now to go for wasted spark COP, just need to find the time to make up the loom and mounting plate.... Then may make a second loom for wasted spark as I have some spare outputs.
That's really interesting to hear, Andre. The subject of spark system upgrade really isn't clear, but that's a great to have your experiences at varying HP's with direct comparisons. I haven't been able to find any other solid data like this, most have been in conjunction with other mods and a biased opinion after having spent $$$$.
@BENchmarks, not sure how I didn't see you reply before my last one, but that is great info too, thank you.
This has all certainly helped. I have the HKS DLII sitting there looking at me, again there isn't much info out there on this, and although I had one on my old car, I didn't fit it so have no idea what difference it made!
I'm going to fit the wasted spark COP and see what difference (if any) it makes to the car. Worst case I'll pull it off if it makes no change, or has a negative impact. And if nothing else, it's an excuse to put a couple of tips from the wiring course to use! :-)
Work has been manic, so the Evo has been a little neglected. I fitted the HKS DLII temporarily and noticed no real difference, and today I finally got around to making and fitting my COP kit, including the 2 extra wires to the ECU to run sequential after re-pinning the Fuel pump and A/C Fan control wires- it fired up on the first turn of the key- which was a result!
Does anyone have the necessary data for the Link G4+ when using [Yaris 1.0L 3 Cylinder] Denso 90919-02229 coil packs? The only data I have is a 2.7mS @ 13V, but my ECU is referring to a complete 3D data table (Batt x RPM) and currently the 13V row is at 4.7mS and the ignition delay is set to 40uS.
The only info I've come across for Denso dwell times of a different part number is this:
8V 6.3 ms
9V 5.3 ms
10V 4.4 ms
11V 3.8 ms
12V 3.2 ms
13V 2.7 ms
14V 2.4 ms
15V 2.2 ms