Discuss all things tuning in this section. News, products, problems and results.
I JUST WONDERED IF ANY ADVICE TO WORK ON MAPPING THIS TYPE OF ECU OR IF THE SAME LIKE OTHER STANEALONE ECU
To be perfectly honest, I won't tune a Greddy e-manage. I tuned a couple back soon after they were released and found it impossible to maintain accurate and consistent tune. On paper they look to be a great product but in my experience at least, this isn't the case in the real world.
There are reasonable piggy back ECUs on the market but one constant problem I see is people expecting too much from this sort of solution. ie if you are planning on large injectors, a bigger turbo and cams etc, expecting great results on a piggy back is likely to end in frustration. They are however great for those situations where you just want to make a mild adjustment to the AFR and/or ignition timing. This suits a lightly modified engine with basic bolt-on mods (air filter and exhaust).
"I tuned a couple back soon after they were released and found it impossible to maintain accurate and consistent tune."
Can you elaborate on this Andre. What were the issues?
I found it impossible to maintain a consistent AFR - ie the AFR tended to wander rich or lean after being tuned and returning to the same site. I also found it hard to get repeatable results during a ramp run on the dyno in terms of AFR, power and torque.
If it was an isolated issue I would have perhaps put this down to a faulty unit or a wiring issue. I think in total I tuned two or three of these and saw the same sort of results on each. Perhaps that isn't a large enough sample size to unequivocally state that they are problematic. It was however my experience and at the time I had other options which I found to offer good results (HKS FCON iS for example) so saw little need to pursue a product which was getting second rate results.
Why was that, though?... i still don't get why it wouldn't hold its values??
that piggy back systems is like tuningbox on diesel cars (fooling pressure signal to the ecu to get higher pressure in rail - so more fuel),
for example with piggiback system fooling air mass meter signal to get more fuel. In main fuel table the car dosnt represent correct site of load. Plus there is adaptation filters, that corrects fuel mixtures time to time.
Unfortunately I don't have an answer for you Marek. That was simply my observations. It was a customer job and hence I wasn't at liberty to investigate further. From other forums etc it seems like my findings lined up with others experiences though. Flawed design perhaps?
Spewin'. I was actually considering getting something like the GReddy E-manage. I'v acquired a 2009 Corolla (ZRE152R) with the 2ZR-FE engine. I want to hot it up... as you can imagine... the factory fuel, spark, e-throttle and IVVT aren't tuned to my liking. ;)
Going full standalone EMS is my least desirable option... ideally i would like to reflash/chip the factory ECU (if possible). What advise can a tuning god like you give me?
What piggyback brand do you think is reliable?
Hey marek, unfortunately the Toyota family aren't well supported in the industry with options for reflashing. This gives you few options but to look at a full standalone. For light modifications where you only need limited control I've had great results from the Apexi SAFC/VAFC/Neo range. These are a simple controller that allows you to manipulate the load input to the ECU at various load and rpm points. They work pretty well for naturally aspirated engines where you just want to manipulate the AFR a little. You do need to be aware that these sort of controllers will effect the ignition timing as well as the fuel delivery and they don't allow the two to be dealt with independently.
My preference for a piggyback unfortunately won't help you out much as the HKS FCON iS is only programmable by HKS Pro Dealers. It is a stable and powerful unit that I've had good results with though.
Are u serious?!... i can't just buy an HKS F-con and tune it myself??
Andre, what are your thoughts on MegaSquirt??. I'm thinking of maybe going with one of MegaSquirts many options.
I'v come to the conclusion that a piggyback system is a colossal waste of money... considering how useless it is!.
I think theres a problem with the forum. There is no individual-reply option... AND it gives you an option to "report" your OWN post... but not someone else's !?.
... also missing emoticons!.
I have just finished tuning a R33 Skyline with a emanage ultimate. Its not worth it. One day car drives perfect next day drives like crap. A good ecu for you would be the HKS FCON V Pro Gold. It is a standalone system. However it can be wired in parallel with the stock ECU. Not piggy back. It would leave ac fan control to the stock ecu and it would deal with the fuel and spark aspect of things. the version 3.3 can also do cam control. the map size is just too big 32 x 32 fuel spark and afr. or you can look at the AEM EMS 4 great price if you willing to put up with aem's crap.
Marek, yes that is how HKS manage their dealer network. There is a hardware key that is needed in order to communicate with the ECU. I think the Megasquirt is probably a great option. We caught up with the guys from Megasquirt at PRI and discussed their ECUs. With any luck we will be doing some testing with one later this year.
@sfrederick, are you an HKS Pro Dealer? How are you tuning the V Pro?
Parallel driven ecu's appears to be a solid solution, it's what i'll be diving into myself when I can manage the expense. From a piggyback standpoint, faking signals just never sounds like a good idea.
From my research, I've learned a few things when it comes to running a parallel ecu system.
1. you're pretty much gonna have to run a second intake air temperature and coolant temperature sensor to get the values. Dues to the nature of how analog thermosisters work, There is some ways around this in certain applications, but they are extremely limited.
2. If obd compliance is a goal, you will probably have to emulate the ignition coil and injector resistance. This can be done in a DIY fashion, or if you're interested, Haltech offers an emulator kit, see the to
3. Running a wideband with a narrowband simulation (assuming the car is originally equipped with a narrowband sensor) will help you along the path to emulate a perfect mixture when you're wanting something leaner or richer than what the oem ecu's intentions are. The only narrowband simulating wideband system I know of is from Innovate, There may be others as well.
additionally, there's a couple things i've yet to completely understand/ confirm.
1. If pulsed inputs (wheel speed, vehicle speed, crankshaft position, camshaft positon, etc) are wired in parallel, I assume the signals would be accurate, but i haven't verified.
2. Knock sensors, i'm not certain on them either when wired in parallell.
hopefully this will guide you to a solid answer. I've supplied some links below with a little bit more information and resources.
Best of luck.
Does the AEM EMS-4 do dual IVVT and e-throttle??
"1. you're pretty much gonna have to run a second intake air temperature and coolant temperature sensor to get the values. Dues to the nature of how analog thermosisters work, There is some ways around this in certain applications, but they are extremely limited."
In general you're right. This is due to analogue temperature inputs using an internal pull up resistor to 5 volts. Some ECUs do allow this pull up to be disabled in software and hence you can share the signal from the factory ECT/IAT. I know this is the case with the Link G4+/Vipec i-Series at least but couldn't give a complete list of ECUs that allow this.
With many early ECUs there is no need to replicate the load of the injectors or coils, but this is essential in more recent ECUs. The other problem I found with the HKS FCON V-Pro is that the factory closed loop system can cause trouble. The V-Pro piggy backs the stock ECU leaving it to control functions such as idle speed, fuel pump, air con etc but the V-Pro is in complete control of the fuel and ignition.
The problem is that the factory ECU still thinks it's controlling everything. If the AFR is richer or leaner than target, the stock ECU will apply a STFT to correct the error. Obviously the STFT will achieve nothing and hence over the course of a minute or two the STFT will max out at the +/-25% limit. If it stays there for long enough this will pull a CEL for system too rich/lean and can effect the running of the car. To make matters worse, you only need to be marginally richer or leaner than 14.7:1 and the system will end up at the rich or lean limit. Adding a wideband controller to the FCON helped but still wasn't a bullet proof fix.
I had this issue on a V11 STi fitted with the HKS FCON and in the end we removed it and tuned using opensource.
AEM EMS-4 Is a bad replica of a haltech sprint. It has left such a sour taste in my mouth lol. EMS-4 is too buggy very little manufacture ignition support. Best way to use it is put a trigger wheel on your crank with a hall sensor and it will be happy. the vvt control is possible but aem wont help you. the say its not supported. Me and my buddy are working on a solution if it works I can link the base cal. @ Andre most people dont know but you can set up the FCON to be a standalone. It has enough outputs to control fan iacv and fuel pump.I did an install for my AE111 Levin 20v. That way you get rid of the stock ecu all together.No more confusion They are amazing. Megasquirt is a great ecu if you willing to work with it. Great feature set great price great auto tune feature. best I have used so far. @Andre PM me we will talk about the hks software
@sfrederick, the first time I installed an FCON it was done as a standalone. In most instances where there is dedicated support for the model, installing it as a piggy back seems to work quite well though.
@Andre.Simon the one prob i dnt like with the power writer is the amount of load cells. 32 x 32. that was something you touched on. But apart from that I love that ECU. If you come across any that guys are replacing I would buy them.
I agree, the 32 x 32 maps are total overkill. You can't change them to 16 x 16 or something a little more realistic, but you can adjust the zoning so I tended to just set up a map with the rpm and load zones I would typically run and just accept I would have a bunch of unused zones outside the range of my actual map.
Nope you cant drop the size well as far as I have seen. I am still willing to work with them over aem any day. When I first started tuning I always thought bigger was better. Then I tuned an Altezza with a 1jzgte swap with a megasquirt then you see. All those rpm and load points are not needed. Again Andre if you come across any fcon v pro gold I will be willing to buy them. thx man
I'll keep it in mind. They do come up from time to time over here for sale. usually removed from Japanese imports that have been modified in Japan.
"The problem is that the factory ECU still thinks it's controlling everything. If the AFR is richer or leaner than target, the stock ECU will apply a STFT to correct the error. Obviously the STFT will achieve nothing and hence over the course of a minute or two the STFT will max out at the +/-25% limit. If it stays there for long enough this will pull a CEL for system too rich/lean and can effect the running of the car. To make matters worse, you only need to be marginally richer or leaner than 14.7:1 and the system will end up at the rich or lean limit. Adding a wideband controller to the FCON helped but still wasn't a bullet proof fix."
Hang on a sec... why would the engine be running outside of 14.7:1, with the piggyback, anyway??. The piggyback would have closed loop O2 control for idle and cruise... wouldn't it?.