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No spark no CRIP no ref/sync synchronization

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In the m600 webinar they said if the ref/sync trigger is not synchronized there will be no spark because ecu doesnt know at what cycle should it fire the coils. As Mark Mccoy adviced me from Motec, i hit space on the diagnostic screen so that the error will go away. I even tried changing the tooth ratio from 50 to whatever came to mind. I changed the crip from -10 to 719 as ecu manager allows. No synchronization! This cant be done by timing light because obviously there is no spark, no spark means no injection also imminently.

Only once when i set my crip to -10 and test advance value to 20 and the tooth ratio at 30 it showed ref/sync synchronized OK at the diagnostic screen. I hit enter again while cranking to check for consistency and again its saiys " error synchronization failed" now I can see only one mark on the 12 tooth Ross pulley and motec says they calculate index tooth as the first tooth after overlapping sync graph ( but from where? The ref /sync capture or what?). Can i use the ref/sync capture to identify the correct CRIP? Or is it something with the mark on the pulley facing up or somewhere in relation to the Hall sensor? Ross balancers say each of their tooth is 30 degrees apart from one another thats all they can say. Very pissed at myself. Make me kneel outside your academy Andre!

Your best bet might be taking an oscilloscope capture of the trigger inputs for engine speed as well as cylinder reference coming into the M600, then forwarding this along with a photo of the wheels being used to your nearest MoTeC office or dealer. You may also share this here on the forum for assistance as well. I won't encourage you being hard on yourself about not being able to give it out, start with the basics and that's looking at what the M600 is seeing then figuring out what it might be returning an error.

If the built-in oscilloscope is okay to take this capture for you then all the better.

Ok let's start at the start - What is the trigger system you've got fitted to the engine? You need to know what this is so you can choose the correct Ref/Sync mode. You can gather this information also from the ref/sync capture on the ECU Manager software.

It's critical to start with that the correct mode is selected as well as the correct type of sensor input (hall or reluctor), and edge polarity.

The CRIP value is used for aligning the ignition timing that the ECU is displaying with the actual ignition advance you're seeing with a timing light. This value has no effect on whether the engine will achieve synchronisation or not and needs to be adjusted once the engine is synchronised properly.

If you have a multi tooth crank with a single sync input on a cam, the alignment of the ref and sync teeth is also critical. The sync input needs to be located between two of the ref teeth. If it's too close to a ref tooth the ECU can get confused. This isn't strictly accurate if your ref sensor is a multi tooth missing style though so this is why it's important to know what the trigger wheels are first.

These are my settings:

Ref type: multi tooth

Number of tooth: 12

cRip: anything that comes to mind

Ref Sensor type: hall

Tooth ratio: i dont know, 50?

Ref Voltage: 0

Edge polarity: not set to fall on my rb25det as motec highly advices not to.

Sync sensor type: hall

Sync Edge polarity: not fall ( any other combinations are fine adviced by motec)

Sync voltage: 0

Sync setup:

1 tooth, placed on exhaust cam

Sync offset: 360÷1=360 ( with the help of motec help illustration if 8 tooth on cam trigger +/-360÷8= +/-48.) .

Now where did i go wrong here?

that's directly from the MoTeC help file for Multi Tooth Trigger Setups:

CRIP :

The Setup Parameter "Crank Index Position (CRIP)" must be set to

indicate the position of the active edge of the REF Index Tooth

relative to TDC cylinder No 1. The Index tooth is the REF tooth

immediately following the active edge of the SYNC tooth. The Crank

Index Position may be set any where between -10 and 720 degrees.

Edge Directions :

The edge directions are configured in the Sensor Setup screens.

The sensor edge direction may be either "rise" or "fall". This refers

to the signal direction at the active edges of the pickup wheel.

Refer to the data on the sensor to establish if the active edge is

rise or fall.

Unused Setup Parameters :

The Setup Parameter "Tooth Ratio" is not used for this mode.

If you follow that exactly, you can actually calculate the CRIP value, by turning over the engine by hand and calculating the teeth.

She should fire up at that point ... then lock the timing and check, alter the CRIP value until your spot on.

So turn over the engine until you see the SYNC tooth on the camshaft right at the sensor, then continue turning the engine while starting to count the crank teeth until cyl#1 reaches TDC.

Whatever you counted now is your CRIP value in teeth, so work that over in crankshaft degrees and that's your CRIP value you enter.

For example, if you counted 4 teeth that's 240° crankshaft degrees, so put 240 in as the CRIP value.

That should get you close enough to start the engine.

I dont know how I can turn the engine by hand and slowly count the tooth, we tried with the help of a guy slowly cranking till the sync tooth came to the sensor. At that exact time the timing mark on the pulley was upwards like a 12 o clock. The Cylinder 1 was at the highest peak and the Sync trigger tooth was were the sensor is exactly. On the crank pulley as i described there was the mark exactly up, a ref tooth in between and exactly its halfway was the mark on the engine in the clockwise direction. If each tooth is 30° apart i suppose each middle section from the timing mark should also be 30° Apart? I tried 30 as crip too, connected all injectors and everything no start. I am attaching a pic as how it looked like. Second one wont upload. Seems like an ipad image name bug.

Attached Files

If you're not able to turn the engine on the crank bolt with a spanner or similar, then just connect everything, turn off your fuel pump and crank it over while doing a ref/sync capture within the MoTeC software.

Every yellow spike upwards would represent a crank tooth, and every blue spike upwards would represent your sync tooth. Just start counting the yellow spikes then ;)

Ideally you would want to know when you're cyl#1 is at TDC in relation to the position of the sync tooth.

I did assume the same, i counted the teeth and it was something like 26 teeth, so 26 × 30= 780 degrees, now what does that mean? 780-720= 0+ 60 degrees as my Crip or something? It sure didn't synchronize at that degree either nor start when i plugged all my injectors in. Sure when when the cam trigger is at sensor my piston is at the Top dead i have seen it with my own eyes. Now i cant say if its intake stroke or combustion stroke or whatever. How do I specifically let it know what stroke it is by telling it a crank degree? Thanks alot you guys by the way.

You don't need to worry about the crip value yet. The crip value is irrelevant until the ECU is reaching synchronisation.

Have you performed a ref/sync capture? It's possible that the ECU isn't seeing an input from the ref, sync or both, and in this case you need to find out why. If you can perform a ref/sync capture you will also be able to visualise the location of the sync input and ensure this is suitable. At this point you may have a wiring issue, a sensor fault or simply an air gap to the trigger disc thats too large. The ref/sync capture will give you all the info you need to proceed.

I did, i have taken a capture many times and all of it is perfect. but neither do i get spark nor achieve synchronization at all. I will attach a screenshot for viewing. One is an image and other is the capture file, if there exist a software that can open it. i assume the 3rd time i see the sync tooth the engine is in combustion stroke so the very next ref tooth i assume it as the crip, here it shall be 25th. Now i multiplied 25X30= and the result wont start my car. and other tips followed by a guy that gave me this in motec forum:

This is a simple ref\sync mode to work out.

1 Do a ref sync capture so you can set what edges you need to trigger on

2 Set your engine to TDC no 1(firing stroke)

3 Rotate the crank clockwise until the correct sync tooth edge is facing the sync sensor

4 Now look at the ref sensor and see where the teeth are. If there is a tooth facing the sensor you should probably move the ref sensor as this may cause problems at high RPM. Idealy the ref sensor should be between two ref teeth.

5 Continue winding the crank clockwise until the next correct ref tooth edge is facing the ref sensor. Mark this tooth.

6 Continue to turn the engine clockwise to TDC no1 (firing stroke) noting the degree's the marked tooth travels until you get to TDC no 1. So if you rotated the engine 350 deg to get the sync to line up then another 15 degree to get the ref tooth to line up the crip should be around 355 (720-365=355)

7 Enter the degree value you worked out in step 6 as a starting point for your crip value

8 Assuming you have setup the correct ref & sync voltage and filter levels ( if you are using mag sensors) once engine is running check the crip using a timing light

-SprinterTRD

Attached Files

Until the ECU is reaching synchronisation it doesn't matter where you have the crip set. You won't see any spark and the engine won't run so this is the first place to concentrate your efforts. The ref/sync capture looks ok and both inputs are coming in. Triggering off rising edge/rising edge should provide good resolution for the sync tooth in this capture. Have you tested any different combinations of trigger edge? It looks like you should have good resolution on falling/falling and a falling ref/rising sync setup too. Test those combinations and see if the ECU will sync. Once you have the ECU syncing we can worry about the crip angle.

Can you post up the calibration file so we can see the rest of your settings? If your filter values are too high it may be that the ECU is rejecting the trigger inputs as noise.

I am attaching the config file as well.

Attached Files

Anybody to judge where i am wrong? Anyone? The file is there to see all my settings with your own eyes. I am desperate please help. .

Fallah, can you please do another ref/sync capture and save it as an .rsc2 file within the motec Software and upload it once again please. Your trigger voltage seems a bit low on that 10V scale and your filter settings may just be too high for it to work.

How did you wire up the Trigger / Sync Sensor? How much voltage are you supplying?

Andy

The forum does not allow uploading rsc2 file. Used the wires out of th nissan CAS split it open, cam signal for cam, power anground for it. Took the same power and ground and the crank signal and connected it to the crank sensor. Configured in motec as advised by the support team denoted it 0 volts by the software. Thru wires they get the same voltage the nissan CAS once received. And the best part wires are done by someone who knows whats he doing and not me.

I am attaching the screenshot of both the ref and sync filter table, nothing fancy its all that the help file suggested i just added the numbers and the missing ones i interpolated from the help of the software.

Attached Files

For the sake of checking, could you please set both the ref and sync filter tables to '0' everywhere and test please? Have you also tried any other combinations of trigger edge?

Yes tried other trigger edges as well. Last time a guy on motec forum told me to go ref fall and sync rise didnt help. I will set them to 0 and try again. And if it doesn't help i will look for something else.

Hi,

Yes today i reset the filter values to 0 . No synchronization again, the ref sync capture didn't become ugly surprisingly. So i guess there must be another severe problem or I am way low on the learning curve to understand the basics of starting a car. Hope to see a course sometime in the future where all kinds of wizardry is learnt when it comes to installing non plug and play type ecus, where all calibrations and ref/sync setups have to be made like a pro.

Any chance you have the Ref & Sync signals swapped? If you can't upload the .rsc2 file directly, perhaps you can archive it into a .zip file and upload that? My question could be answered if I had that file as I could see what colors are used for each signal. Use the Options... button in the Ref/Sync Capture window to see what colors are used for each signal.

You can save and load the .rsc2 files using the Ref/Sync capture window and the "Save..." and "Load..." buttons.

as David suggested, please save the ref/sync capture and ZIP the file, then upload it ... that should help us, diagnose your problem furthermore

That's a great suggestion David and one that hadn't crossed my mind.

The forum is a little fussy on what file extensions it will allow but a .zip is a great way to get around any that it won't let you upload.

Hey there fellas;

I have compressed the file and therefore attempting to upload for u. Please note, this is a capture before i Zeroed all the filter values like Andre had advised.

Attached Files

This appears to be a compressed version of your configuration. We need you to zip the Ref/Sync capture file (the one with the .rsc2 extension). We will be able to use the Ref/Sync capture window to "Load..." your file and look at it in detail.

Yeah sorry i made a mistake there, here i have a file. by the way what program do u need to view this file? i searched the internet found nothing.

Attached Files