Tuning Ignition

How would you find the minimum timing number for best torque if you weren't using a dyno when tuning ignition? is there a way to do it with tuning on the street or do you have to use a dyno to set up ignition timing?

I would check out the OEM MBT spark table and come off 7 or 8 degrees and start my creep to KR or start at factory timing and add 1-2 degrees until KR then come back whatever margin for safety. I would hope someone could correct this if its wrong, although so far its worked for me.

While the above process is true for knock limited engines. If not knock limited you really want to visit a load-bearing dyno to get it dialed in. Maybe you can do it with some of the apps available today. Take a look at this webinar:

https://www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/268-dyno-tuning-without-a-dyno/

As a little piece of advise it would be wise to stay conservative on ignition timing when trying to make the most power of an engine. For instance, if you add 2 degrees of ignition timing and it gives you 10hp of additional power but after last 2 degrees adjustment it gave you only 3-4hp it would be better off to go back to the last ignition timing value that gave 10hp power increase. Trying to squeeze every single pony is often the way to troubles so some safety margin would be really helpful with keeping the engine safe.

As David said, there are many "'phone app's" that will measure acc'n with surprising accuracy.

Using one will give an idea on timing and mixture, used on the same road and conditions.

I would strongly recommend a logging tool and caution.

I'm not sure it's practical to even try that on the highway. Some PCM's will log estimated torque output, you can also get stand alone tools... That said it'd be good practice to monitor those PIDs if you have them.

But without a dyno finding MBT would be really hard, there's lot of additional factors that are hard to isolate for a consistent torque measurement when going down the road.

I second georg1970. I've personally mostly stayed away from timing tuning and work with a well established safe baseline I created. Most recently I've had a highly experienced tuner get me closer to the mark on timing. He created a new baseline for me with more timing advance. It can save a lot of time and effort if somebody can get you closer to the mark before you do a bunch of road tuning. I learned that the hard way, easily spent a couple thousand dollars on gas collecting logs for my tune.

Once you've dialed your tune in, especially with Fuel, rent dyno time to find MBT... When you know that MBT number maybe prudent to not run FULL MBT timing for several reasons; engine life, conditions engine didn't see in dyno cell, variations in fuel quality, etc. etc. etc.