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Discussion and questions related to the course MoTeC M1 Software Tutorial
- Turbocharged Honda B Series 1.97L
- Staged Injection
- FIC 1200cc primaries
- FIC 2150cc secondaries
- E98 fuel
Recently picked up an M130 and started on my first M1 calibtration for my car (setup below). I ran in to an issue with my Engine Efficiency Table. I'm reaching 200% VE at only 21psi/246kpa. I'm no where near the limits of my fuel system. I'm sure there's something in M1 I've overlooked or have simply not setup correclty. I'm stumped though at this point I've gone through everything I think could have caused this. Please share your thoughts.
The initial setup is as so:
I've attached the injector calibration data I've taken directly from FIC which I've copied over and checked multiple times.
Here's the injectors tab:
What firmware package are you running?
Are you using a MoTeC LTC for Lambda? Is the Lambda sensor mounted downstream of the Turbo to avoid issues with pressure-related changes in the sensor output?
Where is the air temp measured, and which channel is it configured for?
Are you measuring fuel pressure? Is that setup to calculate the correct differential pressure in vacuum and boost?
Has the Charge Cooling Gain been dialed in for both primary & secondary injectors? Have you enabled the Inlet Air Temp axis?
Normally the Efficiency table will flatten out above 100-125 kPa. If you are seeing numbers like 200%, you are likely "baking in" a correction that should be somewhere else.
If you want to post your M1 Pkg, or a Logged Data file (which can have the M1 PKG embedded in it)? We can perhaps make some better suggestions.
- Yes I'm using Motec LTC for Lamba.
- See attached picture for placement
- Air Temp is measured in the charge pipe before the 12 inches away from the throttle body. Measured in analog temp input 1.
- Yes measuring fuel pressure. Setup correctly to measure differential pressure in vaccum in boost, I'm not sure define correctely sorry.
- Charge cooling gain has not been dialed in. I wanted to but was told not to waste my time by someone else who tunes siimilar cars on a similar package. I was told it's not a concern as it's a drag car only. Currently setup as 13% correction no temperature axis enabled.
- That's what I'm assuming. Something in the background is causing this issue which I cannot find.
- M1 package is John Reed Racing Honda B-series.
- I can't seem to attached the package. It's not allowing me to. Feel free to send me your email and I can email it to you. My email is email@example.com I've attached the last two logs. "Log 1" before I made a change to the staged injection. Log 2, the last ramp run where I called it a day as there's an obvious issue.
The package is in the log file, so I've got it now.
Fuel Pressure Default should be more like 60 psi instead of the current 43.5 (won't make a difference unless the sensor fails).
I think the Charge Cooling Gain needs to be tuned, especially for the secondary injectors. I think with E98 you might find cooling gains for secondary like 55degC @ 120degC air temp ramping down to 17c @ 30c air temp. I suspect this is the kind of change that will lower whole VE table, particularly at higher air temps -- it will result in more fuel going in for a lower VE value. I just found another turbo example that used 40 degC Charge Coolling Gain for Secondary Injectors. The farther these are mounted from the intake valves, the larger the gain.
Gotta go. Will add more later...
I would be interested to know where FIC got that information that has been provided, as it doesn't match any of the data that I have for FIC injectors. It may be that the provided data is not correct for the M1's fuel model.
I would recommend getting the Charge Cooling Gains and Fuel Film setup, especially for running E98.
When the engine is running, look at the Complete Fuel Calculations worksheet under Monitor and look for any values that do not look reasonable.
There is a fair amount of Fuel Volume Coolant Temperature Trim in use as well.
Is there any chance you have primary and secondary injectors swapped?
The reason I say that is you have 80% contribution of the secondary injectors (which are almost twice as large as the primary injectors), and the interpolation starts at 100 kPa. Below those values you seem to have very small VE values (like the injectors are too large), and above 200 kPA, you have very large VE values (like the 80% secondary injectors are too small).
I suggest you physically verify which injector is which, then use the Test Output pane in Input Setup->Injectors tab to test each primary and secondary injector (make sure there is no fuel pressure and the fuel pump is off!)
One way to fix that if they are swapped would be to change the resources for injectors on the Input Setup->Injectors tab->Output Resource pane. Be sure to update your wiring documentation, too.
Wow thank you guys for the help and quick support. I very much appreciate it.
Let me try to summarize and reply to everyone's comments and suggestions as best as I can.
- Good catch on the fuel pressure default. I forgot to change that. Thanks.
- I've seen the HPA video of tuning the charge cooling at say 3000rpm. Makes complete sense and shouldn't take long. Makes me want to kick myself in the ass for listening to others and not just doing this. My only question though is how do you do this with the secondaries? Makes completely sense on the primaries, but how would I go about tuning the secondaries? Higher rpm more load where the injectors are contributing as well?
- Reading both of your posts I'm really starting to worry that the injector data is wrong. I tested and checked my inputs and outputs several times before actually trying to fire this thing up. All injectors were tested with a noid light to insure they were wired and correctly setup. Everything checked out good. This is leading me to believe the injector data might be wrong?
Here's where I got the data
- Furthermore in regards to the injectors being backwards, the more I think of it the more I think they're not. The reason why I'm I'm saying this is at the begining of the session, as I began to setup the secondary injectors with much lower values, the primaries were over 80% DC. As I started to bring up the secondary contribution the primary injector duty cycle started to fall. I ended the day at 80% secondary contribution which yielded 30-40% DC on the primaries.
- The fuel coolant temperature correction was also another oversight on my part. We made sure not corrections were running in the background right before a ramp run. I watched this in the diagnostics section under the Fuel Trims tab.
Change the secondary contribution table to be 100% in the region that you are using to tune the Charge Cooling Gains, making sure that you have a window on either side of the Engine Speed that you are targetting so that you do not introduce any of the Primaries, and then just go through the same process. Starting with the same numbers as the Primaries will assist in getting into the window quicker as well.
I do the calibrations for MoTeC, I do not have that data for those injectors listed so I am unsure of where they got it from, and how accurate it is for the model that is used in the M1.
I have attached the closest data to what you have provided.
Those look to be exactly my primaries. Do you have the potential date for the secondaries? FIC 2150s. Thanks again
I haven't done any calibrations fo the 2150's. Try the calibration for the H0011 that is available in the Fuel Injector Primary Calibration drop down (its the same data as in the attached file), run the engine without the secondaries active, and see if the numbers normalise.
Thank you Stephen. I'll try this out and report back. Going to be a few weeks before I get it on the dyno again.
I spoke with Fuel Injector Clinic and and it turns out that they think there was an error in the calibration they provided. They made some tweaks and came back to me with the attached file. I'm still a little skeptical about using it. It's very costly to go to the dyno and find out it's wrong.
Stephen as you do these type of calibrations for Motec do you mind having a peak and see if you see anything that doesn't make sense? If it still looks a little off I'm just going to go with the default file in the M1 that you mentioned. I started looking at the 10 volt section and some of the numbers in the higher uL were 40%+ different than the file you provided.
FIC also said they had someone with the same problem who maxed out their efficiency table with their 2150cc injectors and made the same corrections to that data as they did to the 1200cc data I've attached and it fixed the problem.
As I do not have an insight on how FIC get their data I cannot validate there provided data. The calibration process that we use for injectors takes around 8 hours on a standard test and repeats a number of tests during the process to remove discrepancies caused by changed conditionds in the injector.
In other words, you could send a sample 2150 injector to MoTeC and get a proper calibration -- that everyone could benefit from as it would be in the pull-down menu. Takes a few weeks with round-trip shipping to AU, but other than the cost of your shipping, it's free. Work with your MoTeC dealer to arrange this.